Хосеп Гуардиола - Официална тема

Модератори: paceto, kartago, SkArY_9, slavia_forever, Madridist, vaskonti

Потребителски аватар
Thsmith
Мнения: 11810
Регистриран на: 27 юли 2010 14:24
Местоположение: СТОЛИЧНО
Контакти:

Re: Хосеп Гуардиола - Официална тема

Мнениеот Thsmith » 28 апр 2017 18:55

Де Хеа претърпя естествено развитие с оглед годините. Смисъл... виж Нойер дори къде беше на тази възраст. То той вдигна рязко ниво и репутация на 25-6 години дори. Браво вече е в залеза. Иначе нз кво става с този човек. В момента изглежда по трагичен и от Ричард Райт :lol: Аз вярно, че не съм го гледал много в барса, но в класиките и срещу атлетико си беше много стабилен, нищо общо с това представяне. За Чили на Копите и световното също играеше на много високо ниво. Даже си спомням на един такъв турнир, че го бях харесал и си мислех колко добре би паснал на отбор на Тони Пюлис с лекотата с която изритваше топката до другото наказателно :lol:

Сега изживява някакъв катарзис ала Торес.


Sometimes democracy must be bathed in blood.

A.Pinochet

Потребителски аватар
Furious_Monk
Мнения: 5616
Регистриран на: 27 авг 2015 13:25
Контакти:

Re: Хосеп Гуардиола - Официална тема

Мнениеот Furious_Monk » 28 апр 2017 21:35

За мен най-трудната позиция, на която е страшно тежко да се наложиш в Англия е вратарската. Просто специфичното свирене и начин на игра срещу вратаря е доста изненадващ за повечето чужденци.

Иначе Гуардиола трябва да знае, че Браво е свършен за неговия отбор като основен играч. На тази възраст не може да му се позволи твърде дълго време за адаптация.


На линия
Потребителски аватар
boabbb
Мнения: 22329
Регистриран на: 07 авг 2013 08:19
Контакти:

Re: Хосеп Гуардиола - Официална тема

Мнениеот boabbb » 13 юни 2017 13:17

Furious_Monk написа:За мен най-трудната позиция, на която е страшно тежко да се наложиш в Англия е вратарската. Просто специфичното свирене и начин на игра срещу вратаря е доста изненадващ за повечето чужденци.

Иначе Гуардиола трябва да знае, че Браво е свършен за неговия отбор като основен играч. На тази възраст не може да му се позволи твърде дълго време за адаптация.


За Англия вратаря трябва да е над 1.90 със стабилна физика ;) По-слабичките вратари не просперират много ...
О-о-о-о, смешно вратарче :lol: :lol: :lol:

CSKA69
Мнения: 2629
Регистриран на: 23 ное 2012 16:35
Контакти:

Re: Хосеп Гуардиола - Официална тема

Мнениеот CSKA69 » 08 юли 2017 11:02

Блестящ анализ на първата година на Гуардиола в Англия и на опитите му да инсталира своята позиционна игра в Манчестър Сити:

http://spielverlagerung.com/2017/06/27/ ... -analysis/
Изображение

Изображение

Потребителски аватар
Thsmith
Мнения: 11810
Регистриран на: 27 юли 2010 14:24
Местоположение: СТОЛИЧНО
Контакти:

Re: Хосеп Гуардиола - Официална тема

Мнениеот Thsmith » 14 авг 2017 16:59

Бивш лекар на Байерн скъса Гуардиола от критики

Бившият глoвĸн лĸaop нo Бoйĸpн Kюнxĸн – д-p Toнc-Hилxĸлм Kюлĸp-Heeлфoopт poзapи apoйнe любeпитни пeдpeбнecти зo cвeя aeнфлиaт c пpĸдишния нocтoвниa нo eтбepo Tecĸп Гyopдиeлo. Kнeгeyвoжoвoният cпĸциoлиcт нoпycнo бoвopцитĸ пpĸз 2015 гeдинo, aoтe poзaoзo, чĸ cитyoциятo вĸчĸ ĸ cтoнoлo нĸтъpпимo.

Kюлĸp-Heeлфoopт изaopo цĸли 38 гeдини в Бoйĸpн, aoтe и дe дĸн днĸшĸн ĸ дeaтepът нo гĸpмoнcaия нoциeнoлĸн eтбep. Pлĸд ecтoвaoтo мy пpĸди 2 cĸзeнo няaeи eт издoниятo в Гĸpмoния зoпeчнoxo дo poзapивoт eтдĸлни ĸпизeди, aeитe илюcтpиpoxo пeaoчвoнĸтe в нoпpĸжĸниĸтe мĸждy лĸaopя и Гyopдиeлo.

H cъбeтo cпĸциoлиcтът eтбĸлязo cвeя 75-и peждĸн дĸн и дoдĸ няaeлae интĸpвютo, в aeитe eбяcни пpичинитĸ зoд нoпycaoнĸтe cи. „Bĸ бяx cвиaнoл c нoчинo, пe aeйтe Xĸп Гyopдиeлo cĸ eтнocяшĸ c мĸн. Coaeвo нĸщe ниaeгo нĸ ми cĸ бĸ cлyчвoлe пpĸди тeвo, нитe вĸднъж! Eeгoтe имoш ycĸщoнĸтe, чĸ нямo ниaoaвo вpъзao мĸждy тĸб и тpĸньepo, aeйтe eтxвъpля вcичae и нĸ пeaoзвo интĸpĸc aъм мĸдицинcaoтo poбeтo, aeйтe coмe apитиayвo и aoзвo, чĸ вcичae ĸ пe-дeбpe в Иcпoния, нĸщoтo пpĸcтoвoт дo бъдoт зoбoвни”, aoзo Kюлĸp-Heeлфoopт.

„Boпycнox зopoди poзличиятo в мнĸниятo c Гyopдиeлo, aeйтe винĸшĸ мĸн зo зoгyбитĸ и нoдxвъpли cвeятo cфĸpo нo ĸacпĸpтнecт. Eoтe дeaтep oз нecя eтгeвepнecттo зo здpoвĸтe нo игpoчитĸ, o нĸ тpĸньepo”, aoзo eщĸ лĸaopят.

Копирано от https://gong.bg/football-sviat/germania ... iki-445027 © www.gong.bg


Sometimes democracy must be bathed in blood.

A.Pinochet

CSKA69
Мнения: 2629
Регистриран на: 23 ное 2012 16:35
Контакти:

Re: Хосеп Гуардиола - Официална тема

Мнениеот CSKA69 » 22 сеп 2017 09:42

Juego De Position в действие ;)

Изображение

Изображение


CSKA69
Мнения: 2629
Регистриран на: 23 ное 2012 16:35
Контакти:

Re: Хосеп Гуардиола - Официална тема

Мнениеот CSKA69 » 05 ное 2017 00:06

Последна промяна от CSKA69 на 11 ное 2017 00:50, променено общо 1 път.
Изображение

Изображение

CSKA69
Мнения: 2629
Регистриран на: 23 ное 2012 16:35
Контакти:

Re: Хосеп Гуардиола - Официална тема

Мнениеот CSKA69 » 11 ное 2017 00:46

Фантастична дискусия в един чужд форум за Пеп Гуардиола, неговата идеология и футболът, който практикува.. Ако сте добре с английския, приятно четиво:

A - What I am happy about is that so far, Pep guardiola is showing that Johan Cruijff's ideology is universal as is Maurizio Sarri with the Neopolitans.

B- Who do you think follows Cruyffs ideaology more, Pep or Sarri?

C- Guardiola, that's not even a question. Sarri's a disciple of Sacchi, if anything(he's really not. Rather you could say he's a less pragmatic Sacchi)

A- In terms of using Cruijff's interpretation of Positional play, Sarri follows more of Cruijff's ideology. Pep Guardiola uses the flanks in the build up a lot more whilst Napoli utilise the centre a lot more, something that Cruijff was a big advocate of as he believed that using the side backs in the build up effected the build up as you have less options.

Then again I think Guardiola's team makes the pitch wider and whilst Sarri get more compact in order to facilitate their very quick combinations and find the 3rd man. In that respect the compactness is very Sacchi esque. Geometrically speaking, Maurizio Sarri follows the principles of positional play more strictly that Guardiola.

B- Interesting...
Would you say that Pepcelona was the team that you enjoyed the most?

C- He said Cruyff, not Positional play. Sarri's more dogmatic, and leaves far less room for the players to make their own decisions. A lot of what Napoli do is by memory, not based on reading the defence. Cruyff was a big advocate of letting the players make their own decisions. Guardiola is far closer to Cruyff in style and ideology than Sarri

A- In terms of sheer exhilaration and entertainment, the Ajax team of 1985/86 is still the best I have ever witnessed. The first draft of the position game by Johan Cruijff and it brough fantasy back to the club. We scored for fun but in some games we suffered terrible defeats.
I used to watch the games at the De Meer with my father. It brings back a lot of nostalgia.

D- just reading your convo, Sarri’s ideology sounds a bit more like LVG’s interpretation of Cruyff system. I’m sure I read the reason Cruyff and LVG fell out was because LVG didn’t use wingers or something in the same way Cruyff wanted.

C- You could say that, tactically, Sarri's Napoli play positional football in its purest form. They don't make plays so much as they execute them. Napoli players play with Sarri's brain, essentially(with Insigne, Mertens and Jorginho being occasionally allowed to move out of their rotes and improvise)

IIRC the biggest reason for conflict between Van Gaal and Cruyff was Van Gaal was too rigid tactically. His players weren't allowed to move and change positions as much as Cruyff believed they should. Van Gaal asked every player to do a specific job within a specific area of the pitch. In that Sarri is indeed similar to Van Gaal, though he's not as rigid. Sarri's tactics at Napoli are also him adapting to the players. His empoli played a midfield diamond and run their play through the middle instead of the left flank for example
But on the whole, Sarri is closer to Cruyff than Van Gaal

A- In that respect I agree, I think Guardiola has become far more flexible but both follow Cruijff's ideology in different ways. Pep Guardiola allows more freedom within his system and Maurizio Sarri follows Cruijff's ideology more on the pitch from all the books and all the lectures that Johan gave which I attended.
Then again I think Guardiola's system is far more flexible and players can adjust more but that is because I feel perhaps the quality of players might be higher whereas Sarri has to coach a team with perhaps a lower ceiling more but when they cannot execute his plan they look a lot more turgid.
The arguement can go either way. Johan Cruijff still had a system and wanted players to make decisions more organically but the players have less time on the ball so more automatisms have to be used.

B- Even more than van Gaal's Ajax?

I - Yeah it’s weird that you can see all their influences within the way Pep plays now actually. According to Thierry and Zlatan Pep was also quite strict within your role and your job. Even Aguero has mentioned he was given stick for wondering out of position too much. Heck Bielsa has to be thrown in to this conversation as well. I loved Bielsa’s Bilbao team but that’s a whole other topic.

There is just something fascinating in the way Pep plays, I haven’t really seen much of Napoli but I’m going to make an effort to catch some games as I’ve grown to love the tactics of football in recent years. However nearing the end I feel Peps Barcelona lost their cutting edge and they became more mechanic and it just got a little repetitive and boring.

A- A lot of the older Ajacied were not fans of Louis van Gaal because of how rigid and militaristic he made us play. The team circulated the ball till we could find the free man mostly through quick switches. The old ajax used mostly 3rd man runs and the wingers dribbled a lot more. A lot of them complained that we didn't attack more and were too cautious. I enjoyed it as that was the first team to play confer to the positinal play principles but I understood why a lot of people didn't warm to it.

I still remeber one of my friend's complainig that we just have 70% of the ball all the time.


B- So would you say Pep is closer to Cruijff or van Gaal?

C- There's a catch there: Guardiola's roles aren't confined to the individual player, but the area of the pitch he occupies at any given moment. Whereas Van Gaal limited roles to players

You can say that Van Gaal is far more reliant and the individual quality of his players, whereas Guardiola is all about facilitating his players job. The core of that style of football as developed by Michels and adapted and evolved by Cruyff, which both Guardiola and Sarri ascribe too whole-heartedly, is numerical superiority around the ball(if you watch any of their teams play, you'll how their play goes through the creation of triangles around the ball). Van Gaal flipped that concept on its head. Instead of creating numerical superiority around the ball, what he wants is create even number situations across the pitch. Where for Guardiola or Sarri the third man as to be close to the ball and in a position where he can be reached with an easy pass, for Van Gaal the third man must occupy a more dangerous area, meaning it'd be harder to get him the ball, but if he does get it, he's already in a position where he can do damage to the defence

In terms of the way they build up the play, Wenger might be closer to Van Gaal than Guardiola or Sarri(or Cruyff)

@A Sarri follows the tactical principle -the theoretical ideology if you will- more closely, while Guardiola(who played for Cruyff) follows the actual phylosophy. Don't know if it's clear :D

This is a ridiculous post within a ridiculous discussion honestly

C- Cruyff. Guardiola shares little with Van Gaal

F- Very nice C. I think the same, and only disagree about Sarri's Napoli playing positional football in its purest form. I think people are giving him some free points because of his courage to play like that with a good, but not great team. While Pep gets a bit of criticism because he was spoiled to work with some of the best talents ever to kick a football. But none of that should count too much. Pep's tactical role in him actually improving a sextuple team from the 2009 level to an even higher 2010-11 level (proof that titles don't tell the whole story, because the 2010-11 team was superior even though the 2009 team won everything in a single season) is much higher than most fans believe. He didn't even make very good transfers back then. The evolution of the team to such level was his work. In a way Pep set the plays and the players added the extra touch. But he did set the plays, make no mistake about that. As Sarri does now.

But let's go back to Van Gaal a bit, the part where you got it spot on.

There was this story about Van Gaal being very upset with Herrera at United because he seemed to vacate his position a bit in order to help a teammate make a pass (based on the logic that if I move a bit, maybe the player will find it easier to pass the ball to me), probably a thing from his days under Bielsa at Bilbao. Now, that would have been a positive thing if another player would have adapted his movement arch to match Herrera's. This is fluidity we're talking about here. If I make a move as a player, then the system must adapt. And if the system doesn't adapt, then gaps are created and the shape is broken every single time my move is not complimented by that of my teammate's. Lucho at Barcelona had this grave issue in his last season (let's remember he played quite some years under Van Gaal at Barca). Sometimes a player used to play a fluid system in the past, like Iniesta or Busquets, would have this instinct to make a move vacating his spot, but without anyone covering the space he left behind. This is because these players were used all the time to seek the ball and move towards it. But they did it randomly with Enrique (probably baited by the other team), without their teammates following suit (so called teammate orientation, which is as important as position orientation and ball orientation), and it led to huge structural problems in the team. Gaps basically, big ones even, that very good teams like PSG and Juve exploited with ease in both the 4-0, and the 3-0 loss from the last soason CL campaign. Now this seems to have been fixed so far this season, but in a more negativistic way, in the sense that Valverde looks to have instilled more discipline, which we'll see how well will work, if at all.

Back to the initial point, possession without sufficient fluidity is the no1 reason for why Van Gaal's possession football failed at United imo, because it implied this notion of trusting the player on the ball and not helping him enough. Now, that's not bad in itself, but it puts greater pressure on each player to perform to the required level. Fluidity imo is basically a smart way to create a gap by moving the other team around, so that even the less skilled players see the gap, and are sort of forced to pass the ball in the hole. Fluidity just manufactures passing channels until the follow up gets clear enough that even a decent passer can release and connect with a teammate from a more dangerous position (which was pretty close to the ball carrier - so called first station ball as Mourinho put it last year, because Pep plays long only when there are clear benefits form doing so - based on the simple idea that the amount of time the ball travels in the air can be used by the other team to get back in good defensive positions). Xavi/Iniesta could pass the ball in the hole without much fluidity, this is why they are all time greats, because they had a gift of mastering the art of passing. They could pick up forward passes even while in a more 'fluid-less' setup so to speak. But other players would struggle to connect in a rigid system simply because they don't have the fine touch and weight of pass of a Pirlo (a master passer brought up in rigid football). So, Van Gaal in more ways than one, played possession football based on the same rigid or semi-rigid setup as the italians. Which is why italian sides have had the most success in basically his best years as a manager.

Van Gaal's possession play from his United days absolutely needed grade A playmakers to work. We're talking players of Xavi/Iniesta quality, able to execute great passes consistenly, based more on their individual quality than on the system creating holes to pass into. It's basically a talk of player vs system in generating progression. Bringing the ball from A to B in a progressive way, with great consistency and very little movement from your teammates is one of the hardest things in football and only the greats can do it as consistently and sistematically as a manager would want and need. And it's something that is often out of the control of the manager in the end because you really need to have a great team to make it work. This is the reason Van Gaal's approach to progressive positional play is dated when compared with Pep's and Sarri's.

Now, the interesting part is that, from a tactical standpoint, when we're going into the intricacies of possession football, Pep's 2009 Barca is not the same as Pep's 2010-11 Barca, some key aspects were different. The fluidity of the team wasn't the same. Pep's 2010-11 is a higher level of Sarri's current Napoli team for me. It basically kept the fluidity of the setup and added the insane individual quality of the players. This is why the 5-0 vs Madrid happened and this is why, on that night, it could have happened imo against any team I've ever watched. The reason is simple. In that fluid setup the only way a team would've stopped Barca is if they knew in advance where they would move. And that just isn't possible. The one that makes the movement will always have an extra second than the one who tracks down that movement. It's the law of nature. So, if you are good enough in a fluid progressive possession play, you WILL ALWAYS have an advantage. The difference between winning and losing lies in how well you use that advantage. And this leads us to the quality of players, finishing your chances, having good enough motivation.

A- Johan Cruijff although Guardiola is not a romantic like Johan.

Louis van Gaal used very strict positioning and he saw each player as a number and each number from 1 - 11 carried out a specific task regardless of who wore the jersey so in a way even though you could say that Cruijff and van Gaal wanted to ahcieve the same thing, van Gaal's system was far more top down where as Cruijff's was bottom up if that makes any sense.

van Gaal did not care about stars. His version of positional play was far more horizontal and still used the third man but often looked to find the free man by circulating the ball rather than through third man combinations. So even when Rijkaard vacated the #4 shirt after we won the European Cup in 1995, whoever played the pivote for us was expected to carry out the same task. It is no surprise that king Louis fell out with Rivaldo, then Ribery. His lack of positional switching meant that if the team was heavily man marked that they struggled as they could not switch the ball to the free man fast enough. A good way to differentiate between Johan Cruijff and van Gaal is to watch Frank Rijkaard's role for the both of them.

Even when Cruijff and van Gaal played their a 1-3-1-2-3-1 system, the differnce in application was startling. Reizeger and Frank de Boer rarely ever went forward as the side backs but Sergi and Ferrer ended up on the byline sometimes.

Louis van Gaal's football represented his personality as he was a PE teacher and gave orders, just like Johan's football represented his philsophy as he was a genius attacking player so he loved technical players that were instinctive.

Guardiola is methodological just like he was as a player but he applies Cruijff's philosphy, within his system there are variations which is why once you understand his system, the players automatically can interpret what to do when the opposition changes shape and respond accordingly as they did with in his final season at Bayern Munchen.

With Guardiola, he still has a zonal system but his is far more vertical and players can rotate within the given system and he tries to put players within his system where they can apply their strengths to it's fullest but he still has a lot of basic tasks you have to do.

Do not think of positional play as a strict rule of thimb, but rather as a guideline that you adhere to. Different teams use different degrees of it whilst some use it to the fullest extent. Antonio Conte's Italy for example used a very basic version of it but it was still in it's essence position play. What makes Pep special is not positional play itself, but the way he has his variations within his system and the Bielsalistic elements as well. Like Johan Cruijff, he teaches you to see the game in a different way so you will know what to do when confronted with any situation.

I agree with you C. The difference is that Pep allows for a lot of variation because he teaches you to understand why things happen and so intuitevly the players start to act automatically once they grasp the concept. In that way he is very much Johan Cruijff's spirtual successor.

Sarri's while he applies more concepts of the positon game to its fullest, once the system breaks down the players sometimes look very lost. It is very van Gaal esque in that regard.

F- The issue with LVG's vision is that the window of opportunity for a pass that advances the play, turning stale possession into progression was very small. The pass needed to be on point at the right time or the window was closed, and then another stage of ball circulation was done and the cycle repeated itself. With Pep, the higher fluidity means that the passing channels open up more often as off the ball movement generate space and gaps, that the opponent has to close in time. You have to do more work to force a Pep team into more and more cycles of ball circulation. This will end up in a higher frequency of potentially dangerous attacks, creating progression faster and potentially dangerous passes more often. Wouldn't you say that?

A- Yes. Louis van Gaal was far more cautious and when he was man marked the team struggled. This is very similar to Maurizio's Sarri's Napoli as when they were man-marked by Atalanta they struggle to progress the ball.

Pep Guardiola's football is far riskier and takes far more bravery. I agree with the higher frequency simply because the ball progresses vertically a lot more. The emphasis on the third man runs (which is very difficult to follow as the opposition teams system breaks down attempting to adjust for this) makes this vertical progression even better. Essentially using numerical superiorities to create a positional superiroty behind the line of the opposition. The concept of finding the free man is Dutch football at it's most basic form, not this nonsense we see today were we play this useless meaningless posserssion with square passes that generate no superiorities.

F- Yea, I agree. The idea I find interesting with Pep, is that he somehow has a more convoluted way of generating a free man, but it seems convoluted for the other teams, not for his. Other good defensive teams can track and block simple and isolated runs in space with good success rate, but Pep uses a lot of baits, so the first run in space by one of his players is doubled or tripled by other teammates with awesome chemistry. In some cases the final ball, the one that generates the most danger, is not in any of these movements, but in a 4th surprising movement that the opponent completely disregards, because he is being tricked into thinking the danger will come from this way, when actually the most dangerous free man is released elsewere on the pitch. I remember Abidal's goal on Bernabeu in Copa del Rey, one of the only 2 goals he scored for us. Somehow, Madrid had 10 players cramped up in their own 30m. and Abidal was left all alone.

Abidal is left all alone here because the RB is drawn in the center play, probably knowing Abidal is far less menacing in offense compared with Dani. The passing sequence gives the sensation that it can lead to great danger in the center, even if Madrid has numerical advantage there. By overcommitting in the center, they leave a big gap wide, resulting in a free man. There is so much space there, that even an unskilled finisher like Abidal can make a first touch and score rather easily past Casillas.
Изображение

Изображение


Върни се в “Футбол - Свят”

Кой е на линия

Потребители, разглеждащи този форум: Няма регистрирани потребители и 3 госта